The Brazen Podcast
Brazen is a weekly podcast that aims to help ambitious women question societal norms and make deliberate choices that support their success and fulfillment.
Each episode will cover topics that will help you break free from the mindsets, thoughts, and behaviors holding you back in life and business and embrace your main character energy.
The podcast also brings Calley and Valerie's unique perspectives to the table. Calley is a nurse practitioner, a mother, and runs a business with her husband. Valerie is the CEO of a multi-million dollar company, a business coach for women, and is childfree by choice.
Join us every Tuesday as we explore everything available to us when we brazenly take accountability for our lives.
The Brazen Podcast
Expectations of Parents vs. Non-Parents in the Workplace
Ever wondered why there's often friction between parents and non-parents in the workplace? We grapple with this sensitive issue as Calley Hewes, a self-care coach and dedicated parent, and Valerie King-Mallar, a business growth specialist who is childfree by choice, share their unique perspectives. They both open up about the guilt, resentment, and challenges that can occur, highlighting the pressing need for a more accommodating work culture in the US.
This episode takes you on an enlightening journey, exploring the struggles of balancing parenthood and a professional career. It throws light on the unpleasant reality of the gender pay gap, and the tough choices that working mothers frequently need to make. Listen in and learn why setting boundaries, compensating employees fairly, and fostering a psychologically secure work environment are essential steps towards a harmonious and understanding workspace. This candid conversation is an opportunity to gain insights, challenge assumptions and start meaningful conversations in your own workplaces. So, brace yourselves for an episode packed with raw emotions, honest discussions, and valuable life lessons.
If you enjoyed this show, please share or leave a review. You can also email us directly at hello@brazenwomen.com or send us a message on Instagram.
If you’re interested in monthly group coaching with Calley for just a few dollars a month, check it out here.
If you’re interested in private business or career coaching with Valerie, visit valeriekingmallar.com.
Welcome to Brazen, a weekly podcast where we get down and dirty on how we can live a more bold, curious and vibrant life. We are your hosts Kali Hughes, a self-care coach and nurse practitioner, and Valerie King-Mowler, a business growth and mindset coach. In this podcast, we are helping women stop people pleasing and perfectionism, awaken their inner badass and discover what can happen when we take the lead in our own life. Join us as we explore everything available to us when we brazenly take accountability for our life and well-being. Let's get started.
Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to another episode of the Brazen podcast. I'm Valerie and I'm here with Kali, and today we are going to talk about a topic that has been popping up a lot on my Instagram feed slash in the news and it's about the topic of parents versus non-parents in the workplace and kind of the division of labor and I think what seems to be the theme that I'm seeing and also I am a child-free person, so that's probably why it's popping up on my Instagram but the idea that people who do not have kids are starting to resent, or maybe have been resenting the whole time, when they feel that they need to pick up the slack for people that do have kids, and so we wanted to talk a little bit about kind of what that looks like. Kali is a parent and I'm not, so we can kind of talk about it from two different perspectives.
Speaker 2:I've also sort of been a business owner or a manager and dealt with kind of the flip side of like well, you need someone to be able to do the job and if someone has to leave early, like that is kind of who you go to, and so I have like a couple of different perspectives on the situation and I honestly feel differently at different points about it. But I have personally felt resentful in previous jobs that I was kind of always a person to pick up the slack, because it was sort of assumed that I could. And you know, I'm thinking back to a few jobs ago where I didn't have a long-term partner and I didn't have kids, so I was just like naturally the person that would just pick up the like bigger projects or be able to stay later in the day or you know that kind of thing. So, Kali, what are your thoughts on this?
Speaker 1:Well, I suppose that I have different, conflicting opinions and thoughts at different times too. Like you know, I have been a childless person in the workforce, you know, before I had kids and so you know my job was probably a little bit different than a lot of other people's jobs. I was a floor nurse and so it's a little bit different of work set up and like scenario. But you know there were always those times that you know you'd have the last minute call out, like the morning of when you know other parents kids were sick or their kids had a snow day or that kind of thing, and then it would leave the rest of us short-handed and having to take on extra patience and pick up the extra slack. And then, after I had kids, I entered like a clinic-based environment and so it's probably a little bit more comparable to like a nine to five office-based job.
Speaker 1:And I still have times where, like, my kids get sick or I get sick because my kids are petri dishes and or you know, there's doctor's appointments or school things and I have to leave early and as a parent, there is definitely a lot of guilt that comes along with that because, like you know, that other people are going to have to be picking up the slack for you and doing things that, like, you weren't able to get to, or you know. You know, maybe you're kind of seen as being less reliable and so you know there's a whole lot of baggage, you know that goes along with that. Whether it's like you know, people actually see you as being unreliable because they don't know if they can count on you to be there or not, or if it's all just perceived. But yeah, it's a really unfortunate like double-edged sword, I think on both sides.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think about it because I definitely have been resentful in the past, but like never really about the person themselves, more about just either the leaders of the company, just kind of presuming that I was available. But I also, like I'm kind of a workaholic, so like it never bothered me to take on that stuff and I was like great. Like you know, I'd rather like work late and, you know, get promotions, like I'm fine with that. And I, you know, would sometimes feel bad for the parents, feeling that they I knew that they had a lot of guilt and kind of that feeling of like not being reliable. And I, you know, part of why I didn't become a parent is for that reason, like I knew that I would always have guilt about parenthood and my job at different times and I just don't do well with that much guilt on my plate. But I do think that a lot of my resentment was like I don't think that US is very parent friendly and you know, I think that it's hard because I don't it's easy to get mad at the companies but and depending on the size of the company, if it's a smaller, medium sized company, like it's still easy to get mad at them, but it's like they still have to run a business too. So it's like how do you fault them for asking someone that probably is slightly more available to do the extra work?
Speaker 2:And so, you know, I always have felt that like it's up to chub-free women to push for better, you know, maternity rights and like family rights and stuff like that, because we have the time to do that and it helps women all around you know, not just people with kids and so I feel like this is another kind of concept that fits in that category of, like you know, as women without children, if we do have extra time, like the way that we can support our community of women and our tribe of women is to push for better like rights across the board to make it easier for people to be parents and work at the same time.
Speaker 2:And so there's a piece of me that feels that way. I do. I think where I struggle is when you know it's like, oh, you can work Christmas Eve because you don't have kids, and it's like, well, I still have a family, like you know, I still have a partner, I still have, you know, things I want to do, or that kind of thing can be harder when the expectation from the parents is like you can do it, because I have to go wrap gifts for my kids or whatever.
Speaker 1:It's like well, I have stuff to do too Like.
Speaker 2:I think that's probably the one of the few times that I've like ever presented actual like people when they've been very like.
Speaker 1:Blatantly just you don't have like like essentially it for granted that like you're there to pick up their slack if they can't. Yeah, yeah, I have to say that the way that holidays and things like that kind of got divided up in my nursing like floor nursing jobs was pretty good. They would take all of the winter federal holidays, so like Thanksgiving, christmas Eve, like they did, christmas Eve, christmas day and then New Year's Day and everybody had to work two of them and it was, I think, thanksgiving and Christmas Eve that got paired up, and then Christmas Day and New Year's Day that got paired up, and so every year it alternated which ones you were doing. So you were never, unless you chose to or you like, switched with somebody or you specifically requested it. You never had to work Thanksgiving and Christmas day. Like it was always kind of divided up in a way that I think was pretty fair, because you know, obviously hospital floor nursing is like a 24 seven kind of a gig and so you don't get holidays off, like you know I have in some of my more recent jobs. So I thought that was pretty fair and so I think that's, like you know, a good way to approach it as a leader.
Speaker 1:No-transcript, you know, obviously you want to like keep in mind that people have families and people have different levels of obligation. But I think to a certain extent you need to take that out of the equation. You know, when you're trying to make things fair for people who have kids versus people who don't. And so when I was a floriners, there was always the option like you would get your holiday schedule and you already, if you'd been working there for over a year, you already kind of knew what your schedule is going to be for the next year. And then, if you really didn't want to work Thanksgiving day or Christmas day, then you could ask somebody to like take your shift or switch shifts with you or, you know, negotiate amongst yourselves. And then, you know, assuming that the person that you're asking has healthy boundaries, they would only accept an offer that worked for them and they wouldn't get resentful about it. And then you know it's kind of worked out amongst the employees themselves.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I don't know, I think it's hard because there's no good way to, you know, have to deal with that kind of thing. But I think to take the personal factors out of the equation to a certain extent is something that you have to do and then as a parent, like when my kids get sick, I know that I'm using my own PTO to cover that and like it sucks because I might not be able to like go on a, you know, week and a half vacation like I might want to. But you know, that's just kind of the reality of things for a while, like, and it's not going to be like that forever, you know. Yeah, so I don't know, it's one of those like trade off things.
Speaker 1:I don't know how I feel, to be honest, about those questions of like should parents get extra PTO days? I'm not sure how I feel about that because, like I feel like I could make an argument in both directions, but like it does kind of seem like it gives the child free people a little bit of you know, a disadvantage to a certain degree, because, like what, if your kids are, I don't know, abnormally healthy, and then you just get, like what extra week of vacation time each year? I don't know I can see how that would not go over.
Speaker 2:well, I mean, honestly, my mind goes to so many different points and it depends on, like kind of the angle that we're talking about, because like when I think about people leaving because their kid is sick. Like I know they're not going home to have a fun time, like I don't resent them at all for that, because I'm like I'd much rather be at work than dealing with a sick child.
Speaker 2:No offense to sick children or parents of sick children, so like in that case it doesn't bother me. I think it's a more inherent, like overall kind of expectations. Like I think that you know if that particular parent is also leaving an hour early every day for daycare and stuff like that. Like I know that our daycare isn't set up to make it easy, you know, and even that, like I guess I don't mind as much. I think it's more the expectations that other people will take that on.
Speaker 2:And like I haven't really experienced this as much recently or like in my current life, but like in previous jobs, like I said, when I was single and child free, like I felt like there was a lot of expectation around everything that you know I would have to pick that up.
Speaker 2:But I feel, like you know, I think, being more understanding and I think honestly this goes back to every conversation about child free versus parents Like I think it's understanding on both levels.
Speaker 2:I think that as a parent, being mindful of the fact that there are people picking up additional slack potentially for you and not taking that for granted and just, you know, being willing to kind of not just assume every time, like I like what you said I'm also the child of a nurse, but what you were saying about the nursing schedule, like having some expectations, that there might be times that you have to pick up a little bit of this lack too. But I think, as a child free person, just being really mindful of the fact that, like balancing children and a career is nearly impossible in our culture and, like you know, understanding that you may have to put in a little extra work to balance that out until things can kind of be better for parents and obviously we didn't even talk about during COVID and homeschooling and all of that but like, yeah, there's just like a lot that parents can't.
Speaker 2:I know, and there's so much that they're like dealing with too. So I think it is just kind of understanding on both levels and being willing to talk when you are feeling resentful either way, or you know if you're a parent and you're feeling really guilty like just being able to have an open conversation about it, I think, can really help Everyone's attitudes about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think you know I can imagine if I were like a child-free person and there was like this expectation that like oh so and so can't stay to finish this proposal or whatever because they have to go pick up their kid, can you just stay and finish that out, like as long as it takes whatever, like getting compensated for that, I think is really important and having the boundaries to be able to decline. If that's something that you know you can't do without feeling resentful about it, it's really important to advocate for yourself in that regard. And if you can't do it, or you can only do up to a certain point, communicating that and then, as the leader, making sure that there's like a fair compensation for that extra effort and you're not just kind of taking it for granted as like free labor, kind of in just in the name of being a team player. Like I really think there is no faster way to piss off your good employees than to take them for granted and take advantage of their own personal situation, whatever that might be.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was interesting because when I was thinking about this topic over the last week, I was thinking about like a job I had a long time ago and just feeling like I should have spoken up more and not been willing to do it all the time when I needed to stay late, and but then I do think that, particularly as a young employee with not as much confidence like I, felt like it was really hard for me to say no.
Speaker 2:You know like it would be looked upon in a negative way because the majority of people did have kids. So, like everyone, just assumed that the answer was yes, and I think that's hard because I was willing to do it. But I think I also, even if I hadn't been, I would have felt pressured to.
Speaker 1:I would say, I don't know, I think it depends on the culture, but yeah, I can see that because it's almost like okay, they have sick kids and like doctors appointments and that. But like what are you doing? Like why can't you do this?
Speaker 2:You obviously have plans that you can change, like it's like we're just going out to drink A happy hour with your friends. That's why you can't do it. You joke about that, but I swear that with someone's reaction to me one time and I was like I can believe it, I can believe it because it's like not seen as like a valid excuse to not, you know help out your fellow teammates Exactly you know, whatever.
Speaker 2:Exactly. I guess understanding on the part of all parties is always the answer, but I think that yeah, just being mindful of, like you said, compensating them for it.
Speaker 2:One particular situation I was talking to a friend about recently and once again, this happened a long time ago, so, but I worked with someone who consistently had to leave early every day for like kid related activities, but also like would ask me to do things, like do things and then send them a copy of it, or like send them like a summary of a project we were working on together. And I'm like, yeah, not only am I like picking up that one hour of work on our project, but then you're asking me to do an extra, you know, 20 minutes or half hour of like summary to you about the job. And so I was like, okay, like that to me is really pushing boundaries of like acceptable. But once again I could have said something and I was just like no sure, yeah, I'll do that.
Speaker 1:It's like one of those things that you know we all hopefully learn with experience is like how to have those stronger and healthy boundaries.
Speaker 1:But I think that's also like it makes a really good case for the leader really going out of their way to create that psychologically safe work environment where people do feel comfortable being like hey, I'm starting to feel a little bit resentful about all this extra work I've been picking up, like can we talk about it?
Speaker 1:Or, conversely, as a parent, like maybe going to your boss or your leader and being like I know that I have had to miss a lot of work, leave early a lot of days and I'm feeling really guilty about that. I feel like I'm not picking up. You know my slack and other people are having to kind of compensate for me, and then you can kind of talk about like maybe that's like legitimately what's happening and you can come up with some type of a fix for that, so that you're not relying on your coworkers and you're fulfilling your job duties and whatever. So I think just having that safe environment where people are comfortable, coming to you and having that conversation is really important, because you know you're gonna be able to kind of nip a lot of these situations in the bud early, if people are willing to communicate that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think you know, being able to talk about it openly prevents, like you said, all the little like aggressions that come out when people are discouraged and frustrated with each other. Like you've kind of like stopped it before that can start happening. But one piece, not to prolong the conversation too long, but one piece that I didn't think about too is like I'm wondering if, like as a parent, you or other parents like resent that it's probably easier to get promoted, like as a nonparent, because you can like be like Helly, I'll do that project and like I'll be 100% devoted to my job during this time and all of that. So, like I just want to write your thoughts were on that.
Speaker 1:So I'm glad that you actually brought that up because that was one of the thoughts early on in this conversation. When you're like I'll do that, I'll get promoted, it's fine. But yeah, I think that it really like, without getting too in the weeds about this, because there's like we could have a whole like 12 hour probably, conversation on this topic alone. Yeah, but like it definitely can be hard when you know that like, especially like I'm gonna just talk from the perspective of being a working mother because that's my own experience and I know that you know dads in the workplace also deal with some of this. You know to a certain extent, but there is a lot of that, you know, misogyny and like the patriarchy influence in the workplace, and it doesn't matter how progressive your workplace is, like our culture is so steeped in it that it is impossible to escape it, no matter like how open minded and forward thinking your workplaces.
Speaker 1:I think a pretty well known fact at this point that the people impacted the most by the pandemic we're working mothers, because you know the kids are out of school and have to be, and have to be like basically homeschooled, you know, with the remote options, and you know if your kid has the sniffles, they're out for an entire week at a time, and then you know even longer if you have multiple kids and it's like that revolving door of illness.
Speaker 1:And so the people impacted the most by that were working moms, because it just really has shown a light on the family dynamics as a whole in our culture that it's the moms oftentimes who are having to make the sacrifice professionally to be home and take care of the kids. And there's a lot there that like we could dig through and talk about. But there is, I think, a lot of resentment, like just collectively as a population of people, like as working mothers, that we know that like once we have kids, our promotion options dwindle significantly and like we're going to have to make a lot of really hard choices of like am I going to choose my family and my kids or am I going to choose to like further my career? And it sucks that there's a lot of times that like you have to make that choice and you can't always have it all, and so it's just like one of the really hard things about being a woman and being a mom in our culture.
Speaker 2:But yeah, there's a lot there I was gonna say, because just in you talking about that, I was like, yeah, mother's mothers end up taking on the childcare burden or anything like that, because also the pay disparity between men and women, because when you are making a decision as a family and one of you needs to miss work, like whoever gets paid the most is probably not going to be the one missing work, and so if you're making, you know just decisions based on that, unfortunately, with the disparity in pay between men and women, it's likely going to be the mothers that are taking all the time off.
Speaker 2:So brings up a whole other topic, but that is where I feel that I get the most like depressed for working mothers is that idea of they're not only you know suffering the most, like with child care, concerns and everything, but they also, like have the most guilt, I think, around you know missing work and just because naturally I think women harbor a lot more guilt about a Lot of those things, I mean I just think it's not a win situation a lot of times if you're a working mother.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, for sure, I mean we can continue this conversation at some other point, because there's a lot of Stuff that I think is really relatable to a lot of people, both on the child-free side of things and on the Working mom side of things too. But, yeah, so, listener, if you want to hear us continue this conversation and dig into all of the F'd up things about our American culture, let us know. Send us an email and tell us that you like us just Talking about this stuff and you want to hear more? Yeah, and if you have any questions that you'd like us to answer or talk about, feel free to let us know those too. We are happy to just like hit record and talk about things, because that's what we do all the time anyway.
Speaker 2:Well, until next time, keep being brazen and we will see you next week. Bye, thank you so much for listening to this episode of the brazen podcast. We'd love to hear more about your parenthood or a child-free journey, so please feel free to email us at hello at brazen women comm If you liked this episode. Please rate, review and share the episode so we can get the word out there. We'll be back here next Tuesday, but in the meantime, keep being brazen.
