The Brazen Podcast
Brazen is a weekly podcast that aims to help ambitious women question societal norms and make deliberate choices that support their success and fulfillment.
Each episode will cover topics that will help you break free from the mindsets, thoughts, and behaviors holding you back in life and business and embrace your main character energy.
The podcast also brings Calley and Valerie's unique perspectives to the table. Calley is a nurse practitioner, a mother, and runs a business with her husband. Valerie is the CEO of a multi-million dollar company, a business coach for women, and is childfree by choice.
Join us every Tuesday as we explore everything available to us when we brazenly take accountability for our lives.
The Brazen Podcast
Are you Masking?
Do you ever feel that you are a different person in different situations? Do social interactions exhaust you? Do you struggle to know who you really are? In this episode, Calley takes us through the facts and symptoms of masking.
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If you’re interested in monthly group coaching with Calley for just a few dollars a month, check it out here.
If you’re interested in private business or career coaching with Valerie, visit valeriekingmallar.com.
Welcome to Brazen, a weekly podcast where we get down and dirty on how we can live a more bold, curious and vibrant life. We are your hosts, kali Hughes, a self-care coach and nurse practitioner, and Valerie King-Mowler, a business growth and mindset coach. In this podcast, we are helping women stop people pleasing and perfectionism, awaken their inner badass and discover what can happen when we take the lead in our own life. Join us as we explore everything available to us when we brazenly take accountability for our life and well-being. Let's get started. Welcome to another episode of the Brazen podcast.
Speaker 1:We are your hosts, kali Hughes and Valerie King-Mowler, and we are here today talking about kind of a controversial topic and that is masking. So we're going to dive into like what it is and what it looks like and how people experience it, but first we are going to do two truths and a lie about masking. So I have prepared this series of two truths and a lie. So Val is going to guess and you can also guess, listener, and so let's just get started. So, okay, number one masking is something done by those who are neurodivergent and neurotypical Across the board. Women tend to mask more than men do, and masking is different in those who are neurodivergent and those who are neurotypical, which was a lie.
Speaker 2:So, as Kali knows, I actually didn't know anything about masking before we talked, so I'm really new to this topic. But I am going to say number one is the lie, because I think it's not just neurotypical and neurodivergent People, I think. Masking might be. Everyone does a little bit, or maybe more, I don't know. I think it's more than just that population.
Speaker 1:So actually number two is the lie kind of. It's kind of a trick question.
Speaker 2:So every time we do this it's a trick question.
Speaker 1:So masking is something that's done by people who are neurodivergent or neurotypical, but it is different in people who have neurodivergence, like people who have autism or ADHD or dyslexia or things like that, versus people who don't have those diagnoses. The lie was across the board. Women tend to mask more than men do so in the studies that I found when I was doing research on this, that is true for people with an autism diagnosis. However, they have not found that in other neurodivergence or in people who are neurotypical. It's kind of evenly split men and women. So autism is the only thing that kind of veers off of the pretty even split down the middle, and that is we can link the study that I got that from. It's a 2019 study on gender differences in self-reported. They called it camouflaging, which is the same as masking, in both autistic and non-autistic people.
Speaker 2:I just realized that I neurotypical was the other thing. I was thinking atypical, not like oh, I got you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, so I totally answered that stupidly.
Speaker 1:But anyway, that's all right. So let's talk a little bit about masking, because I knew a little bit about it before I started doing research and, like Val said, she didn't really know much about it at all, and so it was really interesting as I was really starting to dig into masking, because masking is a term that is used a lot in the autism community because it's like a pretty across the board experience for people who have autism and what masking is like. It's also called social camouflaging or compensating, so those terms are kind of used interchangeably. But basically it's a social survival strategy and it's the artificial performance of socially acceptable behaviors, and it often starts as a subconscious response to social trauma. And so it makes sense to me that this is so common in people who are autistic or neurodivergent in other ways, because their brains just don't work the same way that neurotypical brains work, and so if you are behaving and thinking in ways that go against the norm, then there's going to be a lot of backlash against that. I mean, like we know, kids are cruel. A lot of times there's bullying, there's being shamed by family or friends, and that kind of gets ingrained from a young age and you subconsciously start mimicking the gestures and behaviors and personality traits of those around you to kind of make yourself appear to be more socially acceptable to those in your vicinity. So it can look like mirroring other people who are around you, hiding or minimizing your own personal interests or aspects of your personality that might be seen as kind of odd or eccentric, or make you stand out from the crowd.
Speaker 1:Having a repertoire of canned responses for certain situations or scripting and practicing conversations ahead of time, pushing through uncomfortable sensory or social experiences, disguising stimming behaviors, so like hiding your stimming behaviors or suppressing them or treating one stimming behavior for one that's less obvious and then just like projecting yourself as being sociable and happy and just like a bright, happy person. So those are different ways that masking can look and so a lot of the things I just said. They tend to apply more to people who have neurodivergence, but people who are neurotypical can also mask. It just looks a little bit different because it's not as extreme and it's easy for them to put on the mask, like at work we have our work persona and then take it off when you get home.
Speaker 1:But people who have neurodivergence, it's not as easy for them to unmask. A lot of it, I guess, is like a subconscious drive to help you survive, basically like it's so deeply ingrained, which I found to be really interesting because I've seen a lot of the like reels and TikToks and stuff where you know people are like oh, let's show yourself unmasking. And it's like people go from like having a normal happy looking face to like just like a blank or like flat face with no expression. And it's interesting because that's not everybody's experience. Some people just like can't unmask and it's just a totally subconscious thing that they don't have like explicit control over.
Speaker 2:I guess, if that makes sense, yeah, I think you know, when we first started talking about masking, I had sort of questions around what is the difference between masking and sort of filtering yourself? Because I would say that everybody is like a little bit different at work versus at home, because you're not going to be like saying f this, f that or like you know, kind of just being like you're going to be a little bit more professional at work than you would potentially with your best friend. So what is the difference between that and kind of actual masking?
Speaker 1:Well, I'm not an expert in masking so I might get this wrong.
Speaker 1:If you are knowledgeable about masking, please get in touch with us and let us know what we might be getting wrong here. But in my mind the like professional persona that we project when we're at work versus masking is kind of the way I kind of think about it is like it's on a superficial versus like a deep level. Like it's easier for me to like avoid saying a bunch of f bombs at work and appear to be professional, but it's like suppressing those deep urges like for stimming or suppressing like my personality or like who I am as a person. Like that's kind of how I consider masking versus just kind of like having your professional filter on. Like we all have that like customer service voice that we can put on when we need to. But I think people can mistake that from masking. But I think masking is really a much like deeper internal experience of just like suppressing who you are rather than just acting like you're a you know customer service rapper, whatever. You know what I mean. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Can you talk a little bit about stimming? I've never actually heard that term before, and I'm wondering if others might not have heard it before as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so stimming is just like providing your body with stimulation of different types. So like a lot of times it's like a tactile thing, like you know tapping your fingers or like clicking a pen, or like shaking, you know jiggling your leg. That's one that I tend to do a lot and other people have like different types of stims and again, I'm not like a super knowledgeable expert in any of these topics, but it's kind of just like something that's almost compulsive. And, yeah, a lot of kids that I know who have ADHD, for example, like they kind of have to like bounce on their feet or they like jiggle their legs a lot or they're like just you know doing like different fidgety type things or like repetitive things with their hands. So all of that is kind of considered stimming and it's just like a way to kind of discharge some of your energy and also like give yourself some needed sensory stimulation.
Speaker 2:So when we first started talking about this topic, you mentioned that it was like of interest to you because you kind of realized that you do a lot of masking and I was wondering if you could talk about your personal experience with it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so like I think let's just talk about why this even came up in the first place. So I was having a conversation with my sister this past weekend and we were talking about how much the two of us tend to mask and it was just very interesting because we were talking about how, like to us, it is so second nature, like we don't even realize that we're doing it. But you know, my experience is like I will find myself acting like somebody else when I'm in social situations and it's like the weirdest thing because it's like I can't stop doing it. But it's like I'm normally pretty reserved, I'm very introverted, but I will act like I'm such an extrovert and I will just like be super social and like super happy and bubbly and outgoing and like conversational with people, but like that's not who I am.
Speaker 1:Like if that makes sense. And so my sister and I were talking about it, because she does the same thing, but she was like you know, what's wild is that some people just like don't get that, like they don't do that, and I'm like wait, are you serious? Like you're just your normal self all day, every day, and you never just like act the way that you quote unquote should act. And like her husband was like no, I don't do that, I don't understand why you would. And that just got me thinking. I'm like wow, so like it is not a universal experience for people.
Speaker 1:And the other thing that's kind of interesting is like I was doing research for this and like coming up with a list of different masking strategies and like things that people do, and I realized I was like holy shit, I've been doing this my entire life. Oh, wow, you know, like the mirroring, like that's this thing that I specifically mentioned to you when we started talking about it. It's like I mirror the energy and like the expressions and whatever that the person across from me is projecting, like I mirror that back to them. And it's like that becomes my personality when I'm with you, like I have different personalities for different people. But then also like the canned responses In my phone.
Speaker 1:I'm not lying when I say this. I have a list of things to respond to different types of conversations or different situations. I have a list of small talk topics, like when I'm going into a social situation, and I like rehearse them in my head, I practice them and I have scripts Like I say the same thing in different social situations when it comes up and I was like, oh my God, that's just like so weird that that is something that I've always done. I'm like it's just me being prepared, like I'm just, like you know, type A, very prepared person, but apparently that's like masking behavior and I was like, oh how interesting.
Speaker 2:That is like really fascinating. As you know from our previous conversation, a hadn't really heard of it before, and when you described it like, especially from your personal perspective, it really is mind blowing Like that, I feel like it's a lot of work to kind of have to keep up with every different social situation and kind of be a different person depending on the situation. Yeah, it's just pretty like amazing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like honestly. So I don't have any official like diagnoses for neurodivergence, although I've kind of suspected for a couple of years now that I do have some underlying neurodivergence. And you know it's interesting because so like backstory with me, I had a string like over six months I had COVID like three different times and the first time that I got COVID back in 2021, I think it affected me a lot physically and I have like a lot of long COVID symptoms ongoing from that. But then the second time I got it like four months later, I think I experienced it more with like cognitive function, and the way that I described it at the time was that almost overnight, I developed severe ADHD symptoms. Like I couldn't focus on anything, like my concentration was non-existent, my memory was completely shot, like I basically just had ridiculous cognitive dysfunction going on, and so that lasted. I mean, I'm still dealing with it, but it was really bad for like six to nine months. Like pretty much all of 2022 is just a blur because my brain wasn't working. And then you know, this year, 2023, I've kind of you know, been rehabbing like you know cognitive stuff and whatever.
Speaker 1:But it's interesting because you know I've been thinking about it and you know there are some neurodivergence diagnoses in my family and then, you know, it kind of made me wonder, because a lot of my symptoms are very like, they're very similar to ADHD and it's like when I got sick, did something change in my brain that is mimicking ADHD type symptoms, or have I always had this and I've just masked and compensated so well for it over the years that I didn't even realize that it was a thing. But yeah, so that's kind of like the backstory on this. So honestly, after all of this I'm like even more thinking that I might have like a neurodivergence diagnosis in there somewhere. But yeah, like the side effects I guess of masking long term can be the social and emotional exhaustion and burnout. It can lead to depression, anxiety, social anxiety and you know, if it becomes extreme enough, like suicidal thoughts, you have a loss of identity.
Speaker 1:There's just a lot of sensory overload and being overstimulated and then a delayed or misdiagnosis of underlying neurodivergencies. And you know that's something that I've been hearing a lot about for many years now is just how prevalent it is for women especially to be underdiagnosed or misdiagnosed because a lot of the presentations of different neurodivergencies, like ADHD and autism, it looks different in boys versus girls and all of the diagnostic criteria tends to be focused on more boy-like presentations of those diagnoses. So girls being really good at masking just socially and you know, as like a survival strategy, it makes sense to me that they would be really under diagnosed with those types of things.
Speaker 2:So what are some ways that, if you are someone that all of this sounds very familiar to you, how can you get out of sort of masking? Or are there steps that you can take to start to sort of focus more on your pure identity and kind of get rid of some of the masking symptoms?
Speaker 1:Well, I think that that's kind of going to be an ongoing battle for people and I think there's a big push in the workforce and the workplace for employers to be more aware of neurodivergence and, you know, kind of create accommodations for people whose brains just don't work the same as other peoples.
Speaker 1:And so I think that, honestly, working in a place that is aware that people might not all work the same way and are tolerant of that and are like willing to make accommodations, that's probably going to be really helpful in lessening the weight of the masking, because it's not just this feeling that you need to try to fit into the mold or whatever, and I think just having more awareness around it yourself and like being aware of when you're masking and, you know, just taking extra good care of yourself if you have been masking for a long time, like trying to just reassure your mind and your body that you are safe and that you can be yourself, that's going to help kind of lessen the toll, like the physical, emotional, social toll on your system.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I mean, I think a lot of it is just educating yourself on it and educating the important people in your life about it that they can help you along with this, because you know, like one of the struggles that I personally have had for a long time and I'm wondering now if it's all connected, you know, wouldn't that be weird?
Speaker 1:But, like I have struggled for many years, like I'm doing therapy individually, and something I've struggled a lot with is feeling like I don't have an identity, like I don't know who I am, I don't know what I like, I don't know what my real personality is, because I'm so used to like morphing and shape shifting based on the situation and who I'm around, and so for the longest time, I've just been like well, I don't know, I need to like try out new hobbies, see what I like you know, like just find myself, figure myself out.
Speaker 1:But honestly, it's like I wonder if some of this is related to like a lifetime of masking and it's like I legitimately don't know who I am because I'm kind of, just like you know, constantly in that social survival mode. But yeah, so that's kind of interesting. I'd be really interested, like if you're listening to this and it sounds very familiar, like I am super interested in hearing about your experience with that because, yeah, it's just like it's something that I'm honestly like in the middle of right now and it's like just interesting to kind of look at it and be like huh, isn't that something?
Speaker 2:It's interesting that you talked about that, because I was going to ask if you knew who you truly are Like and you know.
Speaker 2:I was also wondering how much like when you said that you're not sure like what your hobbies are or who you are as a person how much of that is like natural sort of progression, of like finding yourself as an adult, because I think that, like a lot of the people I coach are like I don't really know what I like to do for fun, or I don't know you know what my hobbies are, because I feel so like far removed from you know who I was when I was 18 or you know whatever it may be. And is there something where and I know you said you're not an expert, but is there something where that's just a question Is there something where that's just a natural part of growing up? Or do you think that that is pretty typical of people who are masking, because I'd say I'm still kind of figuring out the things I love to do, because there's so much out there and I want to experience everything.
Speaker 2:But I don't like, especially like, relate to the masking symptoms. So I do feel like there is a piece of it that's probably just I don't know like growing up or, you know, evolving as a person.
Speaker 1:I think it probably can be both Like.
Speaker 1:I think it's really common for people. So like, one of the things that I was just thinking of as caviar or whatever to this is, I feel like people who have grown up developing that people pleaser type of coping strategy. I guess they often have this feeling of like I don't know who I am because I'm so used to doing what other people want me to do, or you know, I never have time to figure out what I like because I'm always doing for other people. Like I think that they you know, people who identify with that can have this experience too of like I don't really know who I am. And I think that people who have masked for their whole life also can struggle with not really knowing who they are or not knowing how to embrace who. They know that they are but they don't feel like it's safe to show that part of them, I guess.
Speaker 1:But yeah, and I think that there's a completely normal degree of finding yourself as an adult because I think I consider that to be the work of your 30s is like figuring out who you are as a real life person. That's not, you know, got fluctuating hormones and isn't trying to, like you know, fit in with your peer group and whatever it's like figuring out who you are, but I think that's Taylor Swift says pathological people pleasers and people who mask like. I think there's like an added layer to it for them that makes it more difficult or like harder work to figure that out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you might not know the answer to this, but that kind of leads me to think do you think that masking goes away as you get older? Because I feel like when you get to be a certain age, you kind of don't give a fuck about anything and I'm kind of wondering if, like, maybe the safety piece goes away because you know you're older and you kind of like have more confidence and realize that the world can be safe. Yeah, I'm just curious if you have any thoughts on that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I feel like as you get older, even if you are somebody who has a neurodivergence, who struggles with masking, I feel like as you get older, you know, hopefully you've been fortunate enough to find your people that you can be yourself with and not feel like you have to perform for.
Speaker 1:And so I feel like you know, once you've kind of found a safe community of people in your life, like it probably does lessen, like I was seeing a lot of articles and research studies that talked about how masking, like the prevalence of it, does seem to decrease as you age, and I feel like it probably has a lot to do with, you know, just finding people and settings and environments where you feel safer and then also just like that natural evolution of growing up where you stop giving a fuck about what everybody thinks of you so much, because that is like being so caught up in how others perceive you. That's very developmentally normal for people who are in their teens and twenties especially, and then you know, after that it's like you just stop caring to a certain degree. So, yeah, I think that's why we do see a lot of people who are younger, like in their teens, twenties, thirties, who really struggle with the loss of identity and the masking and all of that kind of stuff, and then it seems to sort of lessen as you get older.
Speaker 2:I have one final question for you, and you don't have to name names, but do you feel that there are people in your life that you feel like you're least likely to mask with, or do you not know that yet?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, like I would say that my husband is probably like the safest person for me, just because obviously we live together, yeah, and he knows me super well and he knows all my little idiosyncrasies and stuff. So, yeah, I feel like there's definitely there's people who I can kind of talk about these weird little things and like laugh about it and be like isn't that weird and it's no. There's no judgment and there's no like shaming or like making me feel like I need to put on a show to like act normal. Quote unquote.
Speaker 2:But yeah, and that give you a little bit of a clue kind of about your identity. If you're like, okay, this is how I am with Garrett, so like this is probably who I really am. Or do you think because you're out in the world together and you kind of do the masking, you still aren't, like 100% sure?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and like, honestly, in social situations like Garrett takes the lead, because I'm one of those people and I don't know if this is like a sign of anything or if it's just purely my personality but I am that awkward person who is completely comfortable with silence.
Speaker 1:Like I can be sitting next to you at a social gathering and I am perfectly fine not saying a single fucking word to you or even looking at you the whole time. And I know that there are a lot of people out there who, like, cannot handle that, like they have to make small talking conversations. But that kind of stuff makes me want to gouge my eyeballs out. Like I just I hate small talk, especially if I don't have my phone list of small talk conversations in my phone. But I'm also it's interesting because it's easy for me, if somebody else is carrying the conversation, to continue that, because I kind of like slip into my mask mode of like just being able to like mirror them and, like you know, have a great conversation. But they have to be the one to lead it, because if it relies on me, we will be sitting there in silence and I'll be fine with it. You won't be, but I will be.
Speaker 2:It's so funny because I am definitely someone that would in the past would have filled the silence and probably still do to a certain extent in social situations. But since becoming a coach, like, I've gotten really comfortable with just like silence and, and so that is really interesting. The mirroring piece of it is like really fascinating to me because I know from like psychological sort of studies that a way to make someone feel comfortable is to mirror them, and it's something that is suggested we've even talked about a little bit in the leadership role that if you're having kind of a difficult conversation with someone, you mirror their energy, and so it's just interesting to look at it from now, this perspective, where you're actually putting on a persona that masks who you are in order to make the other person comfortable and also like you, which is just an interesting kind of like version of something we've already talked about.
Speaker 1:So yeah, yeah, I think it, like what you just said, really nicely illustrates the social survival strategy piece of it.
Speaker 1:Because, you know, at some point along the line, probably before you were even aware of it, it was made clear to you that you behaving in a way that's authentic to you, was unsafe, like it was either physically or socially or emotionally unsafe for you.
Speaker 1:You would be shamed, you would be bullied, you'd be made fun of, humiliated, and so you've just subconsciously adopted the strategy that you've found keeps you socially safe and it's acceptable and people like it and they like you and you're okay when you act like this, and then it just kind of becomes like the operating system of like how you function on a day-to-day basis, which I think is why for a lot of people it is hard to turn that off because it's so ingrained.
Speaker 1:If this is something that's kind of resonating with you or it sounds really familiar or you're kind of having the same like light bulb aha moments that I had just, you know, an hour and a half ago, I think that just educating yourself on you know different social strategies that you might be using, just becoming more aware of it, and then also, you know, talking to your primary care about.
Speaker 1:It is going to be a good place to start because if there is a potential like underlying diagnosis that you've been very effectively covering up through all these years, there is a lot of supports available for people who are neurodivergent or they just would function better with, like, different accommodations or different strategies. Like there is a lot of information out there and if you do have a diagnosis that you've been unaware of up until now, you know that your primary care provider, your family doctor, your family nurse practitioner, is a really good place to start with having that conversation and, you know, getting the referrals in place to investigate that. But yeah, so keep in touch with us and, like, let me know if you're in the same boat as me, because I would love to know that I'm not alone. So, yeah, hit me up.
Speaker 2:Awesome. Well, we will wrap it up with our final segment, which is the question of the day. So this comes from the game Mind to Mind Conversation Cards, not a sponsor, but that is what we're using. So today's question is what is the strangest food you have tried?
Speaker 1:Oh, interesting question. Well, I'm not super adventurous, you know food wise, but I did have some interesting food, different types of foods, one time when I went to a Brazilian restaurant and I can't think of the name of that type of restaurant, but you know, it's like they bring trays of food around and you can kind of like tell them if you want to try what they have or whatever. And I remember trying chicken heart and it was weird but not entirely unpleasant if you didn't really think about what you were eating, I think for me.
Speaker 2:I'm like willing to kind of try everything once. Most of the weird things I've had have probably been meat and I'm not like a super big meat eater anymore. But I'd definitely be willing to try some more interesting things. But I have had like crickets, frog legs, snails like kind of I don't know alligator. I had some different kind of meals in China, but it wasn't anything kind of that unusual. I just and I don't know how actually to describe it. But yeah, I'm kind of like up for trying anything. So I would love any suggestions. If people want to post on Instagram, I'll give it a try.
Speaker 1:As long as I can get it around here, I have to ask what was cricket like, because I crickets and grasshoppers are so creepy to me and I hate them so much, but I'm interested in your experience of eating one.
Speaker 2:I feel like it's just how you think it would be. It was chocolate covered, so the taste was just chocolate. I don't imagine that they have much like taste other than what they're cooked in. Yeah, I mean, there's not like a lot of body there, right? But, it was just very crunchy.
Speaker 1:It seems like it would be mostly exoskeleton. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was more of a texture thing and it tasted like chocolate. So yeah, was it crunchy? Yeah, yeah, very crunchy. So yeah, that was that.
Speaker 1:Interesting.
Speaker 2:Like yeah. So that wraps up another episode of the Breeze and Podcast. Please feel free to follow, like this episode or to send it to a friend or family member who you think would find this valuable, and in the meantime, keep being brazen and we'll see you next week. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Breeze and Podcast. We'd love to hear more about your parenthood or child free journey, so please feel free to email us at hello at Breeze and womencom. If you liked this episode, please rate, review and share the episode so we can get the word out there. We'll be back here next Tuesday, but in the meantime, keep being brazen.
